Transcript from Frank Taney's Q&A in Hawthorne

The simulator was packed for the entire event - so we'll be making this a regular occurrence focused on more specific topics! Frank Taney, a partner at Buchanan, Ingersoll, & Rooney did a question and answer session with over 40 content creators in Second Life. His avatar is "Extinct Darwin."

Here's the transcript of tonight's event, in full. A lot of ground was covered, and we're excited to have panels covering specific topics in more detail in the future!

Enjoy! -Flip

[14:57] Extinct Darwin: Hello Everybody, we'll get started momentarily
[14:58] Akasha Wachmann: this room wouldbe a good bomb target, too many VIPs
[14:58] Jessica Holyoke: woo hoo made it to VIP
[14:58] Ina Infinity: rezzing...
[14:59] Henri DeCuir: Is this going to be audio? Visual? Text?
[14:59] FlipperPA Peregrine: We're going to do it all text
[14:59] FlipperPA Peregrine: We're both fast typists
[14:59] Tigerlily Koi: thank you!!
[14:59] Ina Infinity: hey eirynnes ;-)
[14:59] Jessica Holyoke: yes thank you
[14:59] Eirynne Sieyes: Yes!
[14:59] FlipperPA Peregrine: And this way, we can log it :)
[14:59] Henri DeCuir: Ok.
[14:59] FlipperPA Peregrine: I'm going to be very disappointed if we don't get griefed by the PNs.
[15:00] FlipperPA Peregrine: And Jessica, I hope this is is fully misrepresented in the Herald! :)
[15:00] Jessica Holyoke: griefers? what are those? and is there some paper that deals with the?
[15:00] FlipperPA Peregrine: We'll give it about 3-4 minutes for late arrivals to get here.
[15:00] Jessica Holyoke: I'm fairly good lately
[15:01] FlipperPA Peregrine: We'll do some opening remarks, very briefly, and then I'll take IMs from people - I'm playing moderator.
[15:01] FlipperPA Peregrine: I've never been good with asking questions. I'd do stuff like ring Live Help and ask how to ring live help.
[15:01] Jessica Holyoke laughs
[15:01] Tigerlily Koi: should we start IM'ing now or wait?
[15:02] FlipperPA Peregrine: We'll wait a few minutes :)
[15:02] FlipperPA Peregrine: Okay, we can get rolling. Anyone who arrives afterwards can read the transcript, after all!
[15:02] FlipperPA Peregrine: So, without further ado ... WELCOME!
[15:02] FlipperPA Peregrine: This is the first in what I hope becomes a series of these events to hopefully educate content creators better about their rights in SL.
[15:02] FlipperPA Peregrine: To my left, you'll see Extinct Darwin, aka Frank Taney.
[15:03] Extinct Darwin: hello there
[15:03] FlipperPA Peregrine: Frank Taney is a partner at the law firm of Buchanan, Ingersoll, & Rooney
[15:03] Tigerlily Koi: hi!
[15:03] FlipperPA Peregrine: Frank has argued several virtually famous cases - including Stroker's case, and the Neph / Munchflower / Rebel / et al case you have probably read about.
[15:03] FlipperPA Peregrine: Frank is going to make a few brief comments about the categories of IP rights, and how they pertain to SL, then we'll open the floor to questions.
[15:04] FlipperPA Peregrine: So enjoy this - I mean, how often do you get FREE LEGAL ADVICE?!
[15:04] FlipperPA Peregrine: Take it away, Frank!
[15:04] Extinct Darwin: Thanks Tim. First I want to lay out the four categories of IP that are likely to be at issue in SL
[15:05] Extinct Darwin: THe First category is copyrights. Copyrights apply to original works of authorship
[15:05] Extinct Darwin: IN SL, the works of authorship that are most likely to be relevant are the graphics that appear on the screen, and any underlying code.
[15:06] Extinct Darwin: IN addition, to the extent that anyone is including sounds in their creations, that is potentially copryrightable as well.
[15:06] FlipperPA Peregrine: That would include builds, textures, animations, scripts - basically anything you can create for SL. :)
[15:06] Extinct Darwin: Copyright law protects expression of ideas, rather than the ideas themselves.
[15:07] Extinct Darwin: Second, we have trademarks. Trademarks are symbols, words or phrases that identify the source of goods or services.
[15:08] Extinct Darwin: Third, we have patents. Patents protect inventions, which under U.S. law can apply to articles of manufacture, compositions of matter, and business processes a mong other things.
[15:08] Extinct Darwin: The most likely subject matter for a patent within SL would be a business process that includes software.
[15:09] Extinct Darwin: Finally, we have trade secrets. Trade secrets are processes, techniques and know-how not generally known to the public at large that give the owner an advantage in his or her trade.
[15:10] Extinct Darwin: Trade secrets differ from patents primarily in that they are kept secret while patents are made the subject of public filings.
[15:10] FlipperPA Peregrine: Feel free to start IMing me questions now :)
[15:11] Extinct Darwin: WHile I'm waiting for questions, I will start disucssing the role of the DMCA in IP protection.
[15:11] Extinct Darwin: THe DMCA is an act that does several things relative to copyright. It does not apply to trademarks or other kinds of IP.
[15:12] FlipperPA Peregrine: Henri DeCuir: can Frank talk about the logistical process of registering a SL trademark at the PTO? costs and what not?
[15:12] Extinct Darwin: I'll address Henri's questoin first.
[15:13] Extinct Darwin: You first identify the mark at issue, which might be a symbol, word or phrase.
[15:13] FlipperPA Peregrine: I'm trademarking the word "rez"! :) Just kidding.
[15:13] Henri DeCuir: genericide. ;)
[15:14] Extinct Darwin: You then identify the area of commerce in which you want to use the mark. (THis is in connection with the application).
[15:14] Ina Infinity: you mentioned DMCA has to do with formal copyrights... so if you don't apply for a copyright, can you still bring it to court?
[15:14] Ina Infinity: also, what is the difference between ideas themselves and expressing them?
[15:14] FlipperPA Peregrine: Ina: I'll ask Frank that in a second when he's done with trademarks :)
[15:14] Extinct Darwin: You also have to give an affidavit stating that you either have been using the mark in commerce or intend to do so.
[15:15] Extinct Darwin: You send the application with the filing fee to the PTO in D.C.
[15:15] Extinct Darwin: THen you wait. Right now the PTO is taking 4 to 6 months to respond initially.
[15:16] Extinct Darwin: THe PTO often responds with what is known as an office action, outlining issues they want addressed before they approve the application.
[15:17] Extinct Darwin: If they approve the application, they publish the application, which will eventually become effective if no objection is received and sustained.
[15:17] FlipperPA Peregrine: Jayson Watkin: Ok, so how much of a legal market is there for specializing in Virtual worlds if someone were to say go solo?
[15:18] Extinct Darwin: It depends on what areas in which you have legal expertise.
[15:19] Extinct Darwin: IN my experience representing SL and virtual world clients, they need contract help, IP advice, sometimes corporate help, and when they become big enough, help with things like employee issues (NDA's, noncompetes).
[15:19] Extinct Darwin: As a solo you may need to have a referral relationship with others if you do not have expertise in all of those areas.
[15:19] Object does not appear to be for sale.
[15:19] FlipperPA Peregrine: Ina Infinity: you mentioned DMCA has to do with formal copyrights... so if you don't apply for a copyright, can you still bring it to court? Also, what is the difference between ideas themselves and expressing them?
[15:20] Extinct Darwin: You can file a DMCA notice with LL without registering the work in D.C. You cannot file a lawsuit for copyright infringement without filing an application.
[15:21] FlipperPA Peregrine: Nyte Caligari: I was told by my own IP lawyer that LL isn't exactly following the DMCA by not removing the texture or whatever from the offenders inventory. How valid is that statement?
[15:21] Extinct Darwin: I can only speak from my personal experience . . . .
[15:22] Extinct Darwin: Which is that they have not gone into inventory. I don't think that is living up to the requirements of the DMCA.
[15:22] FlipperPA Peregrine: Tigerlily Koi: Does putting in a copyright/DMCA/terms of use notice in our products give us any protection? Do they have to agree to it prior to purchase, or does buying and/or using the item constitute agreement of terms? Or is it more of a "CYA" thing that won't do much more than let people know they shouldn't infringe?
[15:23] Extinct Darwin: It sounds like you are essentially asking them to agree to the SL equivalent of a click wrap.
[15:23] Amon Eames: Are there other methods rather than using the PTO that can show a record for oriiginal work that dont take 4-6 months?
[15:24] FlipperPA Peregrine: Amon: I'll put that in the question queue so we stay on topic :) We'll get to it in a few seconds.
[15:24] Extinct Darwin: This would give you a contractual right to object to copying. YOu would not necessarily have to prove that the work is copyrightable.
[15:25] Extinct Darwin: SO, I do see that as potentially giving you a leg up as a merchant.
[15:25] FlipperPA Peregrine: Pukk Abel: How do we decide which "area of commerce" to aply for a trademark under? When looking at the categories offered I was unsure what "clothing and accesories within Second Life" might be filed under.
[15:26] Extinct Darwin: This will depend on the precise use you are making in commerce, but I think that the software categories cover a lot of intended uses. (I should have brought the list of categories with me.)
[15:26] FlipperPA Peregrine: Amon Eames: Are there other methods rather than using the PTO that can show a record for oriiginal work that dont take 4-6 months?
[15:27] FlipperPA Peregrine: Amon: could you explain your question a bit more?
[15:27] FlipperPA Peregrine: The 4-6 months is talking about filing for a trademark - copyright doesn't take nearly as long.
[15:27] Amon Eames: how long does it tsake for copyright
[15:27] Henri DeCuir: (the pto handles patents and trademarks, not copyrights...)
[15:27] Extinct Darwin: Copytright can take as long.
[15:28] Extinct Darwin: There is a procedure to get expedited processing if you're going to sue somebody, however, which costs more money.
[15:28] FlipperPA Peregrine: Tigerlily Koi: Re: Linden Lab does not remove infringing content from user's inventories, only in the virtual world. This means, even if Linden Lab acts on a DMCA takedown notice, and removed the content from within Second Life, that the thief still has a copy and can set up shop again in under five minutes. I don't think that is living up to the requirements of the DMCA, which requires removal from servers. What can we do?
[15:29] Extinct Darwin: I agree. . . .
[15:30] Extinct Darwin: Judging from the commentary accompanying LL's DMCA policy, they reserve the right to terminate accounts if they observe repeated posting of infringing material . . .
[15:30] Extinct Darwin: I think that following up on the infringer with repeat notices is one way to escalate the issue in LL's mind . . .
[15:31] Extinct Darwin: YOu can also, UNder the DMCA, issue a subpeona to LL requesting personally identifying information . . . .
[15:31] FlipperPA Peregrine: ...and then send the New York Post after them to take photos like they did with Rase Kenzo, to put on the front page. :)
[15:31] FlipperPA Peregrine: THAT'LL LEARN 'EM!
[15:31] Henri DeCuir laughs
[15:31] Eirynne Sieyes: Lol!
[15:31] Henri DeCuir makes a note not to hire FlipperPA as his lawyer. ;)
[15:32] Extinct Darwin: This may or may not help if the person is using fake information, however. If that is the case your option would be to institute a lawsuit.
[15:32] pup Witherspoon: but isn't that putting the responsibility back on the creators to run about and find these people, when Linden Labs has the capability, and responsibility, to deal with it from the first filing of a violation ?
[15:33] Extinct Darwin: IN the normal context, you could also sue the ISP (in this case LL) for failing to take reasonable steps to address the infringment . . .
[15:33] Extinct Darwin: HOwever, given that LL is the God of this virtual world, in practical terms that would probably be counterproductive, for obvious reasons.
[15:33] Hikaru Yamamoto is Offline
[15:33] FlipperPA Peregrine: Henri DeCuir: Frank, can you comment the conflict between the TOS (not allowing us to pursue IP conflicts against each other by granting a patent to all creations to all users) and filing DMCA notices against other SL users for purely-SL-infringing content?
[15:34] pup Witherspoon: clarifying, LL is notified that Avatar A has x items for sale that are copybot of your original items, you file the proper paperwork with LL, Avatar A moves the shop to a new location and starts up all over again, and LL says, file a new report ?
[15:34] Extinct Darwin: Interesting question . . .
[15:34] Extinct Darwin: LL views patent disputes as fundamentally different from copyright disputes, and they are right to a degree
[15:35] Extinct Darwin: WIth copyrights, independent creation is a defense to a claim for infringement . . .
[15:35] Henri DeCuir: wait wait, that wasn't my original question.
[15:35] Henri DeCuir: Flipper, I'm afraid your rewording changed the spirit. My concern is about how we're not supposed to pursue ANY IP claims against eachother.
[15:36] Extinct Darwin: by which I mean that if two people in different cities happen to come up with the same copyrightable work, independently, neither could sue the other for copyright infringment
[15:36] FlipperPA Peregrine: Sorry Henri, did I edit it wrong? I thought you were referring to the patent clause :)
[15:36] Henri DeCuir: And that we sacrifice IP rights against other users when we create in here.
[15:36] Henri DeCuir: No, I was mostly on copyright, still. Hence the DMCA.
[15:37] Extinct Darwin: With patents, the first to invent wins. So, especially in the area of software code, one could never know for sure that he or she was free from the danger of being sued for patent infringement . . .
[15:37] Henri DeCuir nods.
[15:37] Extinct Darwin: IN LL's judgment, this would create a cloud of potential litigation that might stifle the incentive to create within SL, hence the restrictions on patent claims
[15:38] FlipperPA Peregrine: Tigerlily Koi: Re: So, I do see that as potentially giving you a leg up as a merchant (agreements included with purchases). - Do they need to agree to the usage agreement PRIOR to purchase?
[15:38] Henri DeCuir: Thank you, Extinct. Very good summary. :)
[15:39] Extinct Darwin: TO increase the chance that the agreement will be enforced by a court, you should make them agree beforehand. Courts like to see offer and acceptance, in basic contract terms.
[15:39] FlipperPA Peregrine: Ina Infinity: a while ago i heard of a case where an author distributed her novel in the form of notecards. in order for a SL notecard to be readable, it has to be "copy". so, as you can imagine, someone took her work and sold it without her permission. iirc, the court ruled *against* the author, because the notecard was distributed as "copy" ... to me, this is clearly a misunderstanding of SL permissions, and the fact that certain Sl intricacies distort the usual words. but, even if copy/mod/transfer were properly explained, would the courts actually respect them?
[15:40] Extinct Darwin: THe permission system is a licensing system. . . .
[15:40] Extinct Darwin: IN copyright law terms, a license is simply permission to do something . . ..
[15:40] FlipperPA Peregrine: We'll also give Frank's email at the end - so if you have questions about a specific case like the one just asked, you can follow up with more details so Frank can analyze :)
[15:41] Extinct Darwin: SO, by making something copy permitted or mod permitted or transfer permitted, you cannot complain if someone does just that . . .
[15:41] Eirynne Sieyes: ouch
[15:41] Ina Infinity: wow...
[15:41] Extinct Darwin: however, if you withhold those permissions, then unauthorized copying, for example, would be outside the scope of the license and therefore infringing conduct
[15:41] FlipperPA Peregrine: Amon Eames: i think GNU makes a public license for copyrighting software, could youu use their license?
[15:42] Ina Infinity: ok, here is the issue -- +copy/-trans ... does the "trans" only apply in SL? i think the issue had to do with people stealing content from SL and reselling it in RL
[15:42] Extinct Darwin: I think you're referring to the GPL open source license. . . .
[15:42] Extinct Darwin: Open source software is still made available pursuant to a license . . .
[15:43] Ina Infinity: (meh.. still on my old question... basically, is there a limit on the domain of the "licensing system"
[15:43] Aldon Huffhines: I got here late, so if this has been covered already, I apologize, but what about Creative Commons licencing on objects?
[15:43] Extinct Darwin: The GPL requires that if you combine your code with GPL code, when you distribute the combined work, you must make the source code available . . .
[15:44] Extinct Darwin: this may or may not be consistent with your business model, so tread carefully
[15:44] FlipperPA Peregrine: Aldon, we'll address that now since it is somewhat similar to GPL :)
[15:44] FlipperPA Peregrine: Same ballpark, heh.
[15:44] Extinct Darwin: I regard CC as a form of open source licensing . . .
[15:45] Extinct Darwin: Open source licensing may or may not be consistent with your business model . . .
[15:45] Extinct Darwin: one needs to read the particular CC license one wants to use carefully, to make sure that you are not granting permissions beyond that which you intend
[15:46] FlipperPA Peregrine: Eolande Elvehjem: What i've seen in other issues that become too troublesome for Linden Lab, is that they just ban the activity in question altogether. Is it reasonable to fear that Linden Lab just does away with DMCAs and complaints of stolen designs and textures altogether because they don't want to deal with it? Based on your experience with Linden Lab, can you comment on whether Linden Lab would rather wash their hands of this or do you think they are willing to work to allow us more protection?
[15:47] Extinct Darwin: THe DMCA applies to internet service providers such as LL. As long as it is technically possible to post on their site they would be very ill-advised to ignore the DMCA . . .
[15:47] Extinct Darwin: this would expose them to copyright infringement lawsuits . . .
[15:47] Extinct Darwin: as for doing away with creators' rights, that would be so contrary to the ethos of SL that I really doubt that we will see that
[15:48] FlipperPA Peregrine: Jessica Holyoke: How do you handle conflicts in a world where many people have multiple accounts with fake information registered?
[15:48] FlipperPA Peregrine: I'll start with this one, technically
[15:48] FlipperPA Peregrine: Then let Frank comment
[15:48] FlipperPA Peregrine: Linden Lab has many ways of tying accounts together... granted, none are perfect
[15:48] FlipperPA Peregrine: They can match IP ranges, do geographical matches, hardware hash matches to see which different avatars are logged in from the same house / etc
[15:48] Jessica Holyoke: wait, that's not what I meant
[15:49] FlipperPA Peregrine: Go ahead and explain? I was trying to clarify alts :)
[15:49] FlipperPA Peregrine: <--- over edits sometimes :)
[15:49] Jessica Holyoke: say I have frank represent me, then he's asked by someone else to sue a third person
[15:49] Jessica Holyoke: by that Third Person is really me
[15:49] Jessica Holyoke: but that
[15:49] FlipperPA Peregrine: aha, great question.
[15:49] Extinct Darwin: i see . . .
[15:49] Jessica Holyoke: so if he sues that third person that's a conflict
[15:50] Extinct Darwin: that is governed by the professional rules of (lawyer) conduct . . .
[15:50] Extinct Darwin: I can't be on both sides of the same lawsuit . . .
[15:50] Jessica Holyoke: right
[15:50] Extinct Darwin: So, if the person who asked me to sue your alt gave me confidential information, that would put me in an untenable position . . .
[15:51] Extinct Darwin: I would have to decline the representation from the second client, most likely . . .
[15:52] Henri DeCuir: I smell the next generation of conflict screening software... scan for alternate online accounts. :)
[15:52] Extinct Darwin: and under some circumstnaces might have to decline to represent you against the second client . .
[15:52] Extinct Darwin: it is very fact specific, however
[15:52] FlipperPA Peregrine: Tigerlily Koi: If LL "should" be removing the infringing content from the servers, and they obviously don't do that at this point, what action can we take to get LL to actually DO that?
[15:53] pup Witherspoon: thank you Tiger, the meat of the matter
[15:53] Extinct Darwin: Unfortunately, your options ar eto keep asking them . .
[15:53] Extinct Darwin: or sue them
[15:54] Tigerlily Koi: class action then?
[15:54] Extinct Darwin: class actions or collective actions are a potential procedural mechanism . . .
[15:55] Extinct Darwin: they are tougher to bring than people may think . . .
[15:55] Tigerlily Koi wonders if the babbler translates from lawyer
[15:55] pup Witherspoon: can we expand on the potential of a class action lawsuit please ?
[15:55] Extinct Darwin: Rule 23 of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure (governing federal lawsuits) sets forth a nubmer of requiremnets a putative class action must meet before it is certified as a class action by a court
[15:56] Henri DeCuir: There aren't a lot of simpler ways to say what he just said... you guys could team up to bring a suit, but it's very complicated.
[15:56] Tigerlily Koi: but with this many people, and this many DMCA's filed repeatedly for the same content, how much more would we need?
[15:57] Extinct Darwin: generally, to be viable class actions, the issues to each plaintiff class member must be common, and involve common legal and factual issues . . .
[15:57] Extinct Darwin: the common issues must predominate over the individual issues, in other words, . . .
[15:58] Extinct Darwin: it musth not appear to the court that there'd be a multitude of individual trials . . .
[15:58] Extinct Darwin: to fully go through all of the requirements as the pertain to this situation would take a while indeed
[15:59] FlipperPA Peregrine: Okay, we're going to take a couple more - but we'll stop taking questions now.
[15:59] FlipperPA Peregrine: Never fear, we'll do this again, maybe on more specific topics :)
[15:59] FlipperPA Peregrine: Archan Allen: In France, when we create an object/ design/ any creation, we own it. we just need to prove we created it and own it. We do not need to make official papers. Do the French copyright is valid on SL or do french people need papers?
[16:00] Justin708090 Alter: how do you unholster a un?
[16:00] Justin708090 Alter: gun*
[16:00] Justin708090 Alter: ?
[16:00] Tigerlily Koi: wrong meeting Justin
[16:00] FlipperPA Peregrine: Justin: Right click it and select DETACH. :)
[16:00] FlipperPA Peregrine: We're in a meeting, feel free to grab a seat.
[16:00] Extinct Darwin: one can obtain recognition (in the US) of materials created abroad, so yes that is possible . . .
[16:00] Justin708090 Alter: nsry
[16:00] Extinct Darwin: to file a DMCA you need not obtain a US registration
[16:01] FlipperPA Peregrine: Aldon Huffhines: Concerning the transfer issue, what are your thoughts about, I guess, licencing use of an object across multiple grids (Second life, Central Grid, OpenLifeGrid, etc.)?
[16:02] Extinct Darwin: use of material in each grid or virtual world will be governed by the terms of service applicable to each grid or world . . .
[16:02] Extinct Darwin: if the grid or world takes the position that the platform owner owns the IP in content created or posted in-world, then stay away if it is important to you to retain your IP . . .
[16:03] Extinct Darwin: also, if your content is potentially significnt to the owner, you should probably try to negotiate a separate deal . . .
[16:04] Extinct Darwin: in other words, if your content will drive traffice to the grid, then that should be a win-win for you and the platform owner . . .
[16:04] Extinct Darwin: most things are negotiable in life
[16:04] Henri DeCuir: says the lawyer. :)
[16:04] FlipperPA Peregrine: Nyte Caligari: Do the creators from Canada or other countries have the same legal protection then those from the states?
[16:05] Extinct Darwin: painting with a very broad brush, yes as long as the material is copyrightable in the US
[16:05] FlipperPA Peregrine: Okay, final question - then we'll give you Frank's contact info in case you have anything to follow up with - or need to get out of jail.
[16:05] FlipperPA Peregrine: Infiniti Mirihi: So, all creators/designers in SL that have filed a DMCA that have had to file a second (or more) for the same content, could potentially sue LL in a Class Action lawsuit to remove the content from the thief's inventory?
[16:06] Extinct Darwin: that is a question that requires more thought and study than I can give in this forum . . .
[16:07] Extinct Darwin: standing here taking questions on the fly
[16:07] FlipperPA Peregrine: Class action lawsuits are all incredibly complex and unique - that's a toughie :)
[16:07] FlipperPA Peregrine: SO I think we're going to wrap up - we ran a little late - but we'll do this again in the future.
[16:08] FlipperPA Peregrine: If you have an suggestions for future topics
[16:08] Tigerlily Koi: Any chance you do class action suits? Or should we check with someone else?
[16:08] Henri DeCuir grins.
[16:08] FlipperPA Peregrine: Feel free to email Frank or me with them, so we can go more in depth on specific topics.
[16:08] Extinct Darwin: yes I do :-)
[16:08] FlipperPA Peregrine: Frank Taney is francis.taney@bipc.com and I'm flipper@PeregrineSalon.com
[16:08] FlipperPA Peregrine: He's also reachable at 215-665-3846 on his bat-phone.
[16:08] Infiniti Mirihi: but if LL repeatedly does the same... simply removing an item, and designers are repeatedly asked to file new DMCAs, would it not be a potental liabilty for LL?
[16:09] Eirynne Sieyes: Philly, huh...
[16:09] Jessica Holyoke: philly represent
[16:09] Jessica Holyoke smiles
[16:09] FlipperPA Peregrine: I'm not sure if you all know, but Frank represents many Second Life companies and content creators, large and small
[16:09] Extinct Darwin: but with all due respect, I'm not going to discuss that topic further in this forum
[16:09] FlipperPA Peregrine: These include The Electric Sheep Company, Eros (Stroker Serpentine), Nephilaine, Munchflower, Crucial Creations, and many more :)
[16:09] Eirynne Sieyes: Excellent.
[16:10] FlipperPA Peregrine: Eirynne: yep, we're in Philly. In fact, we're having people over for beers after we're done with this!
[16:10] Chez Nabob: Thanks much for the time Flipper and Frank. Definitely educational, and very much appreciated.
[16:10] Eolande Elvehjem: thank you very much Frank
[16:10] pup Witherspoon: Tiger, if I'm not mistaken, and there are a lot of folks who are interested in this but were not able to attend today, we'd have a group of more that say 500 content creators interested in a class action lawsuit if that is what it's going to take to get LL to begin more vigerous enforcement ?
[16:10] Tigerlily Koi: thank you both
[16:10] Eirynne Sieyes: Yes, thank you so very much.
[16:10] FlipperPA Peregrine: Here's the problem with a class action suit against LL - for many of us, they hold all the cards. I'm not a lawyer, but it seems to me a class action suit isn't the way to go. There are other ways to get their attention :)
[16:10] Nyte Caligari: Thanks very much for taking the time to do this!
[16:10] Eolande Elvehjem: thank you Flipper!
[16:10] Archan Allen: Thanks a lot, i will email you if i am jailled in second life
[16:11] Eirynne Sieyes: Lol!
[16:11] Web Page: can we stand outside and picket?
[16:11] Henri DeCuir lowers his voice, "one person who gets an injunction would probably suffice..."
[16:11] FlipperPA Peregrine: I don't think LL are evil, or bad people - in fact, I think they're nice, genuine people. There's just too much hippie juice in their water cooler!
[16:11] Web Page likes to picket
[16:11] Henri DeCuir: hey! watch the Bay Area references.
[16:11] Henri DeCuir: :-p
[16:11] Tigerlily Koi: pup, I agree, I think there are a lot more than what's here. looks like a group is in order, or a forum or something
[16:11] Extinct Darwin: he who sets out to do revenge should dig two graves
[16:11] FlipperPA Peregrine: We've seen that LL prefers to react once they get a ton of negative press about something - crisis maintenance instead of preventative maintenance.
[16:11] Web Page still has some tie died t shirts
[16:11] FlipperPA Peregrine: But these are my comments - Frank is the attorney.
[16:12] Jessica Holyoke: you mean like the Herald?
[16:12] FlipperPA Peregrine: loves the Herald :)
[16:12] Extinct Darwin: Thanks everyone, I have to get back to take care of the kids. . . .
[16:12] Chez Nabob: No...mainstream negative press
[16:12] FlipperPA Peregrine: Mainly 'cause Uri throws great parties.
[16:12] Jessica Holyoke: he hee
[16:12] Tigerlily Koi: Thanks again Frank
[16:12] FlipperPA Peregrine: I'll edit the chat log and post a transcript on SLOG
[16:12] Eolande Elvehjem: kids + beer = ....?
[16:12] Extinct Darwin: I enjoyed talking with you all and would be happy to field follow up questions offline . .. you have my contact information I hope
[16:12] FlipperPA Peregrine: http://secondslog.blogspot.com
[16:13] Jessica Holyoke: thanks Frank
[16:13] Pukk Abel has to run off and get some dinner
[16:13] pup Witherspoon: nodding.. when they start to see this issue in the tech journals, and picked up by trade papers and some mainstream blogs
[16:13] FlipperPA Peregrine: francis.taney@bipc.com
[16:13] Jayson Watkin: thanks for doing this
[16:13] Eolande Elvehjem: thank you very much
[16:13] Henri DeCuir nods.
[16:13] FlipperPA Peregrine: If you want to read more about Frank...
[16:13] Akasha Wachmann: **claps**
[16:13] FlipperPA Peregrine: ...and see his pretty little face...
[16:13] FlipperPA Peregrine: See here: http://www.buchananingersoll.com/professionals.php?PeopleID=501

See you all next time, and thank you to everyone who packed the sim to capacity!